Unterhaltung mit #deegree

(20:03:32) JensFitzke: Welcome to our PSC meeting today!
(20:03:53) HermanAssink: Good evening everybody!
(20:03:54) JensFitzke: Everybody is well prepared and ready to start?
(20:04:02) KlausGreve: Good evening
(20:04:10) KlausGreve: ready
(20:04:21) MarkusSchneider: Good evening
(20:04:21) HermanAssink: ready
(20:04:45) JensFitzke: Today's agenda is here: http://wiki.deegree.org/deegreeWiki/PscMeeting/PscMeeting20111027
(20:05:23) JensFitzke: Are there any changes to the agenda right now?
(20:06:22) KlausGreve: no changes
(20:06:31) HermanAssink: not for me
(20:06:52) JensFitzke: Any questions or remarks before we start?
(20:07:52) JensFitzke: If this is not the case we shall start with #1: Minutes of last meeting
(20:08:10) JensFitzke: These are here: http://wiki.deegree.org/deegreeWiki/PscMeeting/PscMeeting20100624
(20:08:22) JensFitzke: ... quite a while ago...
(20:09:45) JensFitzke: I guess there are some pending actions from these meeting notes. If we go into detail there, we could be lost quite soon...
(20:10:03) KlausGreve: right
(20:10:15) HermanAssink: A remark w.r.t. ECW support: For us it is no longer relevant anymore because we convert ECW files to tiles
(20:10:36) JensFitzke: Shall we at least try to collect the open issues from the minutes?
(20:10:58) HermanAssink: OK, but I don't see any..
(20:11:33) JensFitzke: hmm, I think there are. E.g. (838) Release management guidelines
(20:11:54) JensFitzke: This is a document which is more about the releases of deegree v. 2.
(20:12:31) JensFitzke: Most of the contents is obsolete by now, I guess, but perhaps we could make it an action to the TMC to review the document and see if there is anything which shall be documented in the wiki?
(20:12:54) JensFitzke: Then (1253) Finalize process documentation is still TBD
(20:13:19) JensFitzke: (1470) URL pattern change request is closed.
(20:13:26) HermanAssink: Yes, the release guidelines need to be updated
(20:13:51) JensFitzke: (1297) Draft 2009 annual report is closed
(20:14:19) JensFitzke: (1474) FOSS4G WMS shootout participation is closed. Question is: What if there is a follow-up?
(20:14:37) JensFitzke: (1494) Release for deegree day is closed
(20:14:47) HermanAssink: W.r.t. process documentation: Is this still relevant?
(20:15:04) HermanAssink: If yes, what need to be done?
(20:15:22) JensFitzke: (1495) What is "stable" in a release is still TBD, I guess. But we have this on the agenda today.
(20:16:10) JensFitzke: (1253) Finalize process documentation: I think this is still relevant. There are TBDs in the Wiki pages. These have to be removed. Contents to be reviewed and edited. We have to do this.
(20:17:00) JensFitzke: (1526) Tagged deegree 3 builds is closed as well.
(20:17:28) HermanAssink: Yes, I saw that there are stil TBD's
(20:17:30) HermanAssink: Shall I review these?
(20:17:42) JensFitzke: Then within "other business" there is the Wikipedia GIS page issue. We could deal with that within today's Outreach discussion.
(20:17:50) JensFitzke: Herman, yes please.
(20:18:37) JensFitzke: That's basically it, I'd say.
(20:18:57) JensFitzke: Let's briefly collect the relevant actions from this review...
(20:19:28) JensFitzke: Review release guidelines of deegree 2: Action to TMC
(20:19:43) JensFitzke: Review Process Documentation Wiki Pages: Action to Herman
(20:20:16) JensFitzke: Stable Discussion: Action today
(20:20:23) JensFitzke: Wikipedia: Action today
(20:20:37) JensFitzke: I think we could close this agenda item.
(20:20:45) JensFitzke: Any questions, remarks, concerns?
(20:21:03) KlausGreve: agreed
(20:21:06) HermanAssink: No
(20:21:26) JensFitzke: OK. Next agenda item is #2 Review of regulations for joining PSC and TMC
(20:21:51) JensFitzke: The relevant regulations are documented here: http://wiki.deegree.org/deegreeWiki/StructuresAndProcedures
(20:22:37) JensFitzke: The regulations are as follows:
(20:22:40) JensFitzke: - TMC members are nominated by the PSC
(20:23:10) KlausGreve: So we have to nominate new persons
(20:23:12) JensFitzke: - PSC: Nominees must receive a majority vote from existing members to be added to the PSC.
(20:23:42) JensFitzke: Do you have the feeling that the regulations are still OK?
(20:24:14) KlausGreve: yes
(20:24:44) HermanAssink: OK
(20:25:05) JensFitzke: Fine. We could then follow Klaus' proposal...
(20:25:26) JensFitzke: Do we have any nominations for the PSC?
(20:25:46) JensFitzke: I have one: I'd like to nominate Markus Schneider to become a PSC member.
(20:26:21) JensFitzke: Any other nominations for the PSC?
(20:26:51) HermanAssink: @Jens: Please explain your nomination (for the record)
(20:27:02) JensFitzke: Uuh.
(20:27:17) JensFitzke: OK, a second please
(20:28:17) JensFitzke: Markus Schneider is an active member of the deegree project for many years now. He is an experienced java developer and an expert in OGC and ISO standards.
(20:29:03) JensFitzke: Markus is one of the few people who laid down the foundations of deegree version 3.
(20:29:31) HermanAssink: OK, that's convincing.
(20:29:42) JensFitzke: He implemented important building blocks of deegree 3, like the feature store concept, the feature and geometry models and the WFS
(20:30:14) JensFitzke: and at last he's well known to the OSGeo community and an active member of it, I'd say.
(20:30:17) KlausGreve: i'm convinced too
(20:31:11) JensFitzke: I am happy to receive your approval for Markus' nomination.
(20:31:24) JensFitzke: Well, then: Markus: Welcome to the PSC!
(20:31:30) MarkusSchneider: Thank you!
(20:31:40) JensFitzke: Are you willing to contribute to your mission?
(20:31:41) HermanAssink: @Markus: Welcome to the PSC
(20:32:09) KlausGreve: Welcome
(20:32:14) MarkusSchneider: Definitely. I am all willing to bring the project further.
(20:32:26) JensFitzke: Good to hear. Thank you!
(20:32:53) JensFitzke: Shall we go on with TMC nominations?
(20:33:10) HermanAssink: OK
(20:33:11) MarkusSchneider: Sure
(20:33:15) KlausGreve: ok
(20:33:32) HermanAssink: Who is currently TNC member?
(20:33:47) HermanAssink: TNC -> TMC
(20:34:01) JensFitzke: I guess there is no one left currently. Formally.
(20:34:32) HermanAssink: That was my conclusion as wel from the deegree wiki
(20:34:40) JensFitzke: I am not sure if Andreas Schmitz feels he's a member. I am pretty sure that we did not nominate him so far.
(20:34:54) KlausGreve: so we should now
(20:34:59) JensFitzke: Further more my list has Reijer Copier and Johannes Wilden.
(20:35:28) MarkusSchneider: Could I get a clarification?
(20:35:39) JensFitzke: concerning what?
(20:35:40) KlausGreve: good choice
(20:35:48) MarkusSchneider: Does moving to the PSC mean that I will not be able to vote on technical decisions anmyore?
(20:36:04) JensFitzke: Good question.
(20:36:06) KlausGreve: Copier and Wilden
(20:36:21) KlausGreve: @Markus - I think so
(20:36:32) MarkusSchneider: I think the technical part can still benefit from my experience...
(20:36:39) KlausGreve: sure
(20:37:18) KlausGreve: PSC needs technical experience too
(20:37:32) MarkusSchneider: right
(20:37:40) HermanAssink: Markus can be the linking pin between TMC and PSC, being a member of both
(20:37:47) JensFitzke: This kind of double-role might introduce some conflict of interest. And from my understanding it was not intended by the setup of the two committees...
(20:38:21) JensFitzke: ... but of course what you're saying is correct as well, Herman.
(20:38:23) KlausGreve: double roles are something like sitting on to chairs or in between ...
(20:39:03) JensFitzke: I have to admit that I did not thought about this before. It was like natural to me that you're either here or there.
(20:39:27) HermanAssink: Do we have examples from other open source projects where people are a member of both committees?
(20:39:50) JensFitzke: Don't know. Some projects just have one committee...
(20:40:00) MarkusSchneider: I don't think so. I am not aware of another open source project that has two committees.
(20:41:29) KlausGreve: PSC and TMC arre classical project management institutions
(20:41:40) JensFitzke: My feeling is that we should not do this. I am pretty much in favour of a separation of concerns.
(20:42:02) MarkusSchneider: I don't won't to be a blocker here. But consider a practical situtation:
(20:42:33) JensFitzke: I see that it is desirable to have a linking element. But we are allowed to invite a TMC member to PSC sessions as well.
(20:42:44) JensFitzke: We just did not do this before. (Or did we?)
(20:42:50) MarkusSchneider: As a core developer (which I still will be), I may have to discuss design issues with the other core developers (and the TMC).
(20:43:09) MarkusSchneider: Should I be able to vote in such cases or not?
(20:43:41) JensFitzke: Voting as an invited guest at the PSC? No, I guess.
(20:44:13) MarkusSchneider: No, I meant as a PSC member in a technical discussion with the TMC
(20:45:16) JensFitzke: I have to admit that I do not get your point here.
(20:45:57) HermanAssink: Can anyone describe the separation of responsibilities between TMC and PMC? Perhaps that will help us.
(20:46:57) JensFitzke: Just look at the wiki...
(20:47:03) JensFitzke: http://wiki.deegree.org/deegreeWiki/StructuresAndProcedures
(20:47:48) greve_ [4fdf0627@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.223.6.39] hat den Raum betreten.
(20:48:11) KlausGreve: sorry freenode locked me out
(20:48:29) greve hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
(20:48:34) MarkusSchneider: In order to go on here: I accept the separation, but I think it breaks with the concept of meritocracy. And meritocracy is usually working pretty well for technical decision that require expertise.
(20:48:40) KlausGreve: maybe I lost the latest statements
(20:49:14) KlausGreve: I think we organize institutions like PSC to document and channel discussion
(20:50:13) JensFitzke: I did not know that we're adhering to the concept of meritocracy... Sorry.
(20:50:33) JensFitzke: I might be wrong, of course.
(20:50:38) KlausGreve: if we have persons in 2 institution, the idea of channeling discussion won't work
(20:50:49) JensFitzke: I mean: We did not explicitly state that.
(20:51:25) MarkusSchneider: RIght. As I said: I don't wont to block here. I just wanted to clarify the situation.
(20:52:49) JensFitzke: Would you have the feeling that your practical work within deegree might be affected negatively when you're no longer an active TMC member?
(20:52:56) KlausGreve: So we have a shortlist for the TMC?
(20:53:04) JensFitzke: (this was a question to Markus)
(20:53:34) MarkusSchneider: To be honest: yes, that could happen.
(20:54:15) MarkusSchneider: I think technical decisions should take experience into account.
(20:54:35) JensFitzke: This means that we have to re-think your nomination?
(20:54:46) MarkusSchneider: And I believe I am one of the most experienced persons involved in the design of deegree.
(20:55:20) MarkusSchneider: Or we find another way...
(20:56:00) MarkusSchneider: Like giving me the ability to give comments to TMC decisions.
(20:56:10) HermanAssink: I have no problem with Markus being a member of both but there must not be more than one person being a member of TMC and PMC.
(20:56:42) HermanAssink: PMC -> PSC
(20:57:02) JensFitzke: @Markus: This or the other way. I am still in favour of a clear separation of concerns.
(20:57:15) KlausGreve: me too
(20:57:31) HermanAssink: Which means?
(20:57:56) JensFitzke: As mentioned before: We are allowed to invite a TMC member to PSC sessions.
(20:58:09) JensFitzke: (and the other way around)
(20:58:26) JensFitzke: But we have to know who is where.
(20:58:37) MarkusSchneider: I see.
(20:58:59) JensFitzke: Where do you want to go today?
(20:59:05) JensFitzke: (sorry)
(20:59:19) MarkusSchneider: If it's ok, I would prefer to stay with the TMC then.
(21:00:14) JensFitzke: It is a pity but it's OK. (And we just learned a lot)
(21:00:36) MarkusSchneider: Ok. Sorry for not clarifying this earlier.
(21:00:55) MarkusSchneider: But I think I can help the project best in technical decisions.
(21:00:55) JensFitzke: No problem.So: Be our guest! Feel at home! Don't be shy.
(21:01:38) JensFitzke: Shall we move on with TMC nominations? Or are there any other PSC nominations around?
(21:02:26) KlausGreve: TMC nominations
(21:03:02) HermanAssink: We should think about nominations for PSC members and come back to it later.
(21:04:10) JensFitzke: OK. For the TMC if have Reijer Copier and Johannes Wilden on the list.
(21:05:51) KlausGreve: anyone else?
(21:06:19) JensFitzke: Herman, do you have anyone else?
(21:06:49) JensFitzke: Markus, what about you?
(21:06:56) HermanAssink: no.
(21:06:58) HermanAssink: Reijer Copier worked with deegree for many years. contributed to the project with bug-fixes and improvements and has quite some knowledge of deegree internals.
(21:06:59) HermanAssink: I like to bring up the issue of commit access for Reijer
(21:07:10) MarkusSchneider: Maybe Andreas Schmitz?
(21:07:39) JensFitzke: Markus, right you are!
(21:08:05) HermanAssink: Who is Johannes Wilden?
(21:08:15) JensFitzke: @Herman: There are no rules about TMC and commit rights...
(21:08:39) JensFitzke: ... but in the case of Reijer I'd say that he is somebody who shall have full commit access.
(21:08:46) JensFitzke: Would you agree here, Markus?
(21:09:00) JensFitzke: (@Herman, we come back to JW later, OK?)
(21:09:32) MarkusSchneider: sure
(21:09:40) HermanAssink: Of course, there is no formal relation between TMC memebership and commit rights, but it is a bit strange when a TMC member has no commit access ;-)
(21:11:12) MarkusSchneider: as a technical advice:
(21:11:33) MarkusSchneider: getting commit access to deegree SVN is currently a very complicated process.
(21:11:49) MarkusSchneider: maybe we should consider improving this.
(21:12:15) JensFitzke: I do not agree here, Markus.
(21:12:50) MarkusSchneider: I just mean the technical side, not the actual decision making
(21:12:53) JensFitzke: You register to the project and ask for commit rights. The PSC decides and grants or rejects.
(21:13:09) HermanAssink: The process is complicated, because we like to have it secure, I suppose?
(21:13:25) JensFitzke: That's it.
(21:13:26) MarkusSchneider: right. but some people struggled for weeks before getting it to work
(21:14:05) MarkusSchneider: using https instead of svn+ssl is much simpler and as secure
(21:14:15) JensFitzke: Yeah, but this was not due to the process but because they did not manage to get their certificates right, correct?
(21:14:22) MarkusSchneider: exactly
(21:14:23) KlausGreve: I'm afraid, we will never finish our agenda if we discuss all these technical details
(21:15:12) JensFitzke: We have it in the minutes now. Can be brought up again in the future.
(21:15:19) MarkusSchneider: right. we may work this out in the tmc and prepare a ticket for the psc
(21:16:13) JensFitzke: Coming back to Johannes Wilden then?
(21:16:24) HermanAssink: Yes
(21:16:28) KlausGreve: please
(21:16:35) JensFitzke: He's the release manager. He's working hard for every release to get it right.
(21:17:09) JensFitzke: He's creating all the artefacts, struggling with the build server, deploying all the stuff on the demo server, running tests, sending announcements ...
(21:17:49) JensFitzke: Looks like he's more the release assistant
(21:18:02) JensFitzke: Just kiddin
(21:18:08) JensFitzke: We are a small project.
(21:18:17) JensFitzke: Everybody has to do some real work.
(21:18:47) JensFitzke: Markus, some words on Andreas please, to close the list.
(21:19:24) MarkusSchneider: Well Andreas is a very experienced core developer and responsible for the design of some important subsystems of deegree 3 (e.g. rendering, WMS).
(21:19:38) MarkusSchneider: He knows what he's doing
(21:19:53) JensFitzke: ???
(21:20:06) MarkusSchneider: And deegree 3 wouldn't be what it is without him
(21:20:23) JensFitzke: Ah, sounds better.
(21:21:01) JensFitzke: So the list has: Reijer Copier, Johannes Wilden, Andreas Schmitz.
(21:21:06) HermanAssink: So we have Markus, Andreas, Johannes and Reijer in the TMC?
(21:21:25) JensFitzke: Any objections to nominate the three as a TMC member?
(21:21:46) KlausGreve: no
(21:21:48) HermanAssink: No
(21:22:15) JensFitzke: Cool! Nice result. And Herman already had the summary.
(21:22:33) JensFitzke: Next agenda item is: Grant commit rights on deegree SVN to Reijer Copier
(21:22:39) JensFitzke: Any objections here?
(21:23:25) JensFitzke: This means: Full access rights. To the complete project tree.
(21:23:35) JensFitzke: Any objections here?
(21:23:58) KlausGreve: no
(21:24:15) JensFitzke: Hearing none, but would be nicer to see them.
(21:24:21) HermanAssink: No.
(21:24:25) JensFitzke: Oh sorry, I forgot to ask for discussion
(21:24:31) MarkusSchneider: no
(21:24:39) JensFitzke: But that's it by now.
(21:25:04) JensFitzke: Markus, I regard this as an advice by the TMC guest
(21:25:09) MarkusSchneider: sure
(21:25:20) KlausGreve: Bo objections, no need for disscussion
(21:25:32) JensFitzke: We still have quite a list:
(21:25:35) HermanAssink: Can we continue a next time, perhaps in a skype session?
(21:25:41) JensFitzke: Tracker tasks review Current situation wrt deegree releases Public relation activities / Outreach plan OSGeo annual report 2010 deegree day 2012 Website and Wiki (documentation) Other business deegree summit: joint f2f meeting of PSC and TMC
(21:26:10) JensFitzke: Yes, this is quite something to do. Skype is a no-go I'd say as we loose the record.
(21:26:48) JensFitzke: Shall we deal with one of the remaining topics or just postpone all of them?
(21:27:13) KlausGreve: postpone all of them
(21:27:34) JensFitzke: Herman?
(21:27:41) HermanAssink: I like to stop now and continue the next meeting
(21:28:11) JensFitzke: I'd setup a doodle for the next meeting then. Thursday in general is fine?
(21:28:22) KlausGreve: yesplease
(21:28:40) HermanAssink: Yes, Thursday in general is fine with me.
(21:30:01) JensFitzke: OK. That's it for now then. Thank's to all!
(21:30:16) JensFitzke: Minutes will be prepared in the Wiki quite soon (by me).
(21:30:33) HermanAssink: Thanks as well.
(21:30:35) HermanAssink: Bye!
(21:30:39) JensFitzke: Bye!
(21:30:40) MarkusSchneider: Bye!
(21:31:13) KlausGreve: Bye